April 2, 2008

  • Let us reflect together, if only for a moment, on what seems to be an inescapable catch 22 of philosophy.

    Take the two worldviews of Christianity and atheism and ask, what is the epistemology of each of these worldviews?  That is, for a person who takes either of these respective ideas to be true, how do they know it is true? 

    For the Christian, it is through experiencing God in their life somehow, and trusting in Him as their saviour relationally.  For the Christian, life is ultimately a relation entity, where what is important is knowing and loving God. 

    Conversely, the way an atheist arrives at their conclusion is intellectually, by figuring out that God does not exist.  If you have ever listened to an atheist explain why they became such you will usually be hear some list of reasons that they came across, and then their conclusion was that God does not exist.  Professing atheists usually see their disbelief in the existence of God as a direct product of certain lines of reasoning. 

    Now I have no concern in commenting on the rightness or wrongness of either of these worldviews or their epistemologies; I could be speaking from either position in saying this.  But here is what is true by nature about this situation: in affirming the truth of either of these worldviews, you are affirming the truth likewise of its epistemology.  Moreso, in affirming the worldview, you probably used the corresponding epistemology to arrive there, and therefore actually affirmed the epistemology first.

    Thus, in affirming the epistemology we are affirming the worldview.  But then the question is, how do we know which epistemology is correct?  When you think about it, you realize one or the other must be simply chosen at random.  People do not so much disagree about what is the truth as they do how to arrive at the truth, and people can only accept a method for arriving at the truth arbitrarily.  Thus, we are stuck with this simple dilemma: one of these is true, and all you can do is pick arbitarily.  Your whole worldview, or what you think is true, will then be a consequence of which one of these epistemologies you (whimsically) decide is true. 

    I felt the paradoxes were becoming wearisome and perhaps forced; I will muse about the others intermittently.  Might briefly post some more thoughts on God as well (something I am not wont to do). 

    I wish you all wellness and happiness!

Comments (11)

  • I like what you are saying here but I feel it would be more accurate for you specifically mention that the way the Christian does realate to God is directly through the Scripture. This Its revealed purpose and what is says of itself, also anything that can be known in specific Spiritual revelation is revealed solely in the Scripture. Another reason why this would be important is because to leave the “relational” knowing based on faith and without greater definition in detail would allow the pseudo-Christianities to also fall into this category of knowing God, even though what they believe is contradictory to the Scriptures in hundreds (literally) of points, and when asked what is there foundation for belief it will be one of emotional peace in combination with a sense of faith in a belief that is referred to as Christian, but contradictions the detailed definitions of “Christian” from which the only book in the world comes from, the Bible.

    It then becomes a deception to allow the foundation for any belief to be based on emotions rather than provable truths. And incidentally, physics and biblical doctrines are perfectly harmonious whereas the laws themselves contradict often the emotive state of mankind to their detriment, and also do their self-made religions that for some reason they feel better about in giving the seal of authenticity to by saying they are ‘christians too’.

    what is interesting about this, is their teachings are contradictory, as is the logic of the atheist, and in a belief system, where there are contradictory premesis’ the the belief system as a whole is unsound and their for cannot as a body of belief statements be true.

    Ironically, Christianity, as defined by the Scripture, is the only belief system within religion that passes this test.

    just some stuff to think about in your rigorous development.

  • @letseewhatthiswilldo - 

    I am not sure I agree about knowing God solely through scripture.  It seems a good enough idea when we think about our own lives in the present day for sure, but what about the people who actually wrote the Bible?  Scripture was not available for them to know God, so there must be away for people to know God devoid of Scripture itself.  Or, for a less controversial example, take the people that the disciples preached to in and around Israel after Christ ascended; didn’t they know God without the use of Scripture?

    To stir the thought pot even a bit more, Peter Kreeft here counts twelve ways to know God: Twelve Ways.  Tell me what you think.

  • I feel it should be obvious to a reader of the Bible that the purpose of the Bible is to define God and His purpose, ours, and all the philosophical questions man seeks to answer on his own through empirical reasoning.

    The Bible itself says that its purpose is to reveal God, and that there is no other outside source except that which may be seen in the Creation in a general way. We are not left with a general revelation however in how we might interpret who God is because we do have the special revelation of Scripture.

    “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine (teaching; knowledge), for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2nd Tim 3:16

    ** What do you suppose the Holy Spirit means in the above verse when it mentions the word “complete”?

    Another verse:
    “Grace and Peace be mutliplied to you in the KNOWLEDGE of God and of Jesus Christ our Lord, as His Divine Power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the KNOWLEDGE of Him who called us by His Glory and Virtue,
    by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises (the Holy Scripture), that through THESE you may be partakers of of the diving nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” 2nd Peter 1:2-4

    **Did you notice how the Holy Spirit writes through Peter defining that what may be known of God is the the KNOWLEDGE that is acquired from Scriptures, and that it is a Divine provision?

    *** In response to your cultural and historical question regarding the time of the Disciples themselves, it was brought to their attention from John the Baptist and then the Christ that the Messianic Prophecies encapsulated within the Torah, and Tanach that what they had been waiting for had arrived, and the ministry of John the Baptist was to lead people out of apostate Israel, and declare the coming of the Lord, while the Ministry of the Lord was to reiterate what God had foretold in terms of Salvation and Redmeption (and to make Provision for it), as He preached the Kingdom of God, and simultaneously prepared His Disciples to take this message of fulfillment to all that would listen. In addition to this there was Saul converted to Paul who reached a huge portion of the world and who’s writing’s comprise the majority of the New Testament who’s ministry would be greatly characterized as reasoning from the Scriptures that Jesus of Nazareth was, and is, the Messiah that was foretold from the Garden of Eden and consecutively all the way through the Torah, Tanach, and into the New Testament era, thus Paul writes:
    “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures..” (1 Corinthians 15:3)

    Notice that Paul himself is using the foundation of the Scriptures as to why Jesus is the Messiah, and as Paul also teaches..God Himself.
    Thus,if Jesus is God Himself, and is by Holy Spirit the Author of the Word of God and IS the Word of God, as John 1:1 states:

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

    Christianity is built upon the foundation of the Prophets, the Law and the Messiah, and all are defined in exclusivity from the Scriptures as men were carried along to write as the Holy Spirit moved through them.
    Both Paul and Peter were both aware that they were not simply writing ethically, but were in fact being used to write Scripture as the Holy Spirit moved through them.

    So, from the argument of relation to the historical timeline I feel that a more clear and direct question is necessary to adequately answer a question that will be of value in an epistemological sense for the Christian or non-Christian. The question of rhetoric from my point might be along the lines of at what point does the knowledge become inductively transforming so that the argument is completely laid to rest as it works exactly as it claim to in its correct application. (In respect to the Word itself and its bringing in to the human heart as a seed within soil)

    I will leave off from this angle of the discussion at this time so as not to overwhelm you with Bible verses, but I would like to mention these are only a few that I might have chosen to use, and in actuality there are hundreds.

    I would like to address another aspect of something you said in how we might deduce the characteristics, nature and purpose of God outside of the Scripture itself.
    That mankind has done this is evident in our politic and religion historically. Ironically it has not brought much peace whether in agreeableness with men or within spiritual terms, which I refuse to believe to the contrary when murder and war mark the ways of those that seek to understand the Origins and Purposes of life outside of the Scripture. After 5000+ years of recorded history of constant war with less than a few hundred years of peace in totality on the earth it might be wise to re-think our methods.
    Also, in terms of logical and clear thinking we might consider that the receiving of the Scripture as it claims itself to be, would in correct definitions have an objective quality to it, leaving us to reject or deny the specific and defined outline, laws, purposes and intent of God. It is clear to anyone that reads the Scripture that it is not a book of secrets but rather a book of revelation that have not been left to vague interpretation but are specific and redundant in what God has revealed as acceptable and what is not in terms of how we might define Him, ourselves, and our manner of life.
    To compare and contrast to the method you might suggest takes us from an objective point of view to a subjective point of view wherein the the individual them self, and their disposition will seek to define for them self what is or is not true based on experience. This should be obvious as to why it is extremely unreliable, but if I may point out a main reason of obvious flaw within its logic.
    1. The individual is not capable of ALL experiences to make a “complete” group of data from which to deduce what is and is not true. It might come close, but it would never be perfect, as the emotional bent and intelligence and myriad of combinations in which an event or phenomena might be defined are never not going to be without subjective analysis.

    The easiest way we might explain it, a method I do use when sharing Christ with people is to reason that before we could ever agree on what may or may not be true about anything we must discern, discover, and decide what tools will we use to measure the validity and “truth” of anything.

    This is more important than any aspect of any argument on any subject. With this being said, in terms of Laws, Laws of Physics and Laws of Morality as defined within the Scripture they can all be tested and proven while those who prefer outside sources of Revelation buy themselves some time in refusing to repent and submit to God their bodies, minds, and emotions to the process of renewal as they abide in…

    The Word of God.

    This is the most basic and short way I can explain this at this time, if you have questions are want to battle it a bit :) please feel free..because we are free. We are free men, and women to question and consider, and God has blessed us greatly with minds to consider His Creation and our selves and His Word..that we might see the Art in Him.

    in Jesus Forever,
    Charles

  • ryc: Sorry to hear you’re feeling sick, but glad everything else is well
    Kinda rundown mentally and spiritually, which is a bummer.  Feeling good physically though, which is nice.  Thanks for asking back *thumbs up*

    Take care and God bless,
    libby

    ps.  What does “epistemology” mean?  I tried looking it up in the dictionary, but the defination only confused me futher.

  • Great post. I think Peter Kreeft’s list is terrific.

  • @letseewhatthiswilldo - 

    So, just to clarify, what is your position exactly?  Let’s change the word “know” to “saved” to help narrow our meaning to a more tangible concept.  Do you think the only way a person can be saved is through reading what has come to be known as the Biblical canon? 

  • The real question is how can an atheist believe in truth? By the thought process that they ran down, it seems that moral relativism, where there is not so much of a truth or morals.

  • RYC:

    I believe that people can only become saved by the correct reception and understanding of the information presented in the Bible, whether it be through reading it first-hand or someone bringing that information to them correctly through speaking or commentary, or perhaps through music, but these additional methods are not and never should be seen as an acceptable substitute for the completing work of a correctly defined faith as Scripture is designed to produce.

    The other side of this argument may be to question can people that never hear or read the Gospel be saved, which takes us to Romans Chapter 1 where the Holy Spirit writes that mankind has had revealed to them what God’s expectations are…and I trust therefore that in all of the scenarios we can imagine that God being perfect and just, and merciful will make a perfect choice on behalf of every single person in the history of mankind.

    Also, to go even further there is archaeological evidence that the oldest known pagan cultures knew about the sacrificial system God instituted long before the Leviticus writing, that support the statements of Romans 1, that the progressive revelation of God’s provision was made available to all, as is also evident in a survey of the writings of the Old Testament, and records the same as being introduced in several various pagan cultures.

    In light of this and the much more prolific dissemination of the New Testament in its beginning it is fair to say that the world, at any point within History is without excuse, and that not knowing God’s will in terms of Laws, and His Grace is simply not true, and therefore God’s judgment is just.

    *************************************************************************************

    RYC MCTC,
    The statement you made is unclear, or I am very unclear myself. If it is me forgive me, but I am not sure how to respond so I am going to guess :)

    I think in terms of the atheist who refuses to see or accept anything as true, we might question why in specific are they pretending that the truths that do exist in their lives are being ignored, even as they are forced by circumstance to live according to them.

    It is obvious to me that the pseudo-intellectualism of this pretending nothing is true or sound is in all actuality a defense mechanism to disassociate the conscience from the law that is written on the human heart in terms of sin. In any individual case you would be able to observe repetitous conformity to this at least in part in their own lives, had you the opportunity to spend so much time with them, and then from there could use these as examples that would be undeniable.

    At this point it would be well to mention that the what is spoken into someone’s life is in their life permanently, irregardless if you don’t see it take immediate effect, much like the Seed that is planted within the womb that shows no evidence whatsoever of its presence until the day of its undeniable truth.

    Have faith.

    Isaiah 55:10,11.

  • Atheism is not a worldview. It has no epistemology. It is not necessarily a belief at all, but a rejection of a belief. Comparing it to Christianity is a bit like comparing apples to table legs.

  • @Rohirok - 

    Whether or not ‘atheism’ is the name for the worldview, there is definitely a worldview there.  Generally most atheists agree on the narrative of the universe that says its enormity speaks to its indifference for human beings, a species that evolved for no express purpose, and that when we die our conscious experience ends permanently as our bodies decompose in the ground.   Those are the three main traits of a worldview; the origin, meaning, and destiny of humans.  I concur that perhaps atheism is not the best word for this worldview, but among most people who profess to be atheists, this is the worldivew lurking behind that title, which forms the connection in most people’s minds.  Sometimes I defer to the label ‘metaphysical naturalism’ or just ‘naturalism,’ but that throws some people off since no one really calls themself either of those things. 

  • Yes, metaphysical naturalism is the better term, though as you say, it throws some people off.

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