March 18, 2010
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Listless
There are some people who make lists of characteristics that they would like their significant other to have (once they "find" them), a practice which I find overwhelmingly odd. But it's probably true that I only find it odd because I also find it quite problematical.
I suppose the first thing wrong with such a practice is that it doesn't seem to actually address the question you are trying to tackle, namely "What person should I be with?" Once you have composed your list, you haven't actually described any person at all. A list is simply not a person. If you are trying to find a person, then you should stick to thinking about people, and not the characteristics a person may have. There are only people in the world and not lists, so making a list will never help you find a person; there's an asymmetry between the two ideas. Besides, ultimately whether you like someone has much more to do with the relationship you have between you, rather than the sort of person they intrinsically are.
Another big problem with the whole activity of making lists like these is that they presuppose that people are really just bundles of characteristics. But aren't people more than just whatever characteristics we would use to describe them?
My friend Roy was making fun of me once and told a story of a conference for newly weds. To start the conference, each of the spouses was asked to stand up and say why they were with their partner. The first round of people stood up and said things like, "Well, she's funny. She likes the same movies I do. And um . . she's very pretty," and Roy at this point says, "All the people in the back who've been married for years are just shaking their heads going, 'They have so much to learn.'" But then after a bunch of people had answered like that, one guy stands up and answers about his wife, "I have no idea . . . I'm just better when I'm with her." The guy said it in a way that made it seem like he tried for a long time to think of an answer, but he just couldn't. There was a mystery about his wife that made her everything to him.
Now that seems to me to be right on. The wife of this man was more to him than just all the characteristics she possessed; she was that something which he didn't understand, something above everything he knew about her, and all he knew is that he couldn't help but love her. To truly love someone is to find the reason you love them a total mystery.
The last thing that seems to me to be fundamentally backwards about romantic list-making is that it presupposes a conception of love which is non-sacrificial. The philosophy behind it says "They have to measure up to my standards." But this attitude is completely backwards; love is first about looking for someone to serve, and then about having someone who will serve us. But list-making seems to say that the other person is the one with work to do, a potential candidate vying for your heart in some sort of competeition in which you are the ultimate judge. And that seems to be the exact wrong attitude to take toward other people.
One of the reasons this last one is a problem is that it is a version of the crush fallacy in which you love someone only because you are in love with romantic love, and you only see them as a means to fulfilling that idea. But we are not supposed to use people to satisfy our idea of life, we are supposed to see them as an ultimate end in and of themselves.
Those are some thoughts on the idea of romantic list-making. If you disagree, I will be very mad at you for not chiming in. I'm not entirely sure how I would know you didn't chime in, but if I were you I wouldn't take that chance.
Comments (14)
This might be one of my favorite entries ever.
The weird thing is, every time I've made a list (mentally, I don't think I've ever written one down), when I find someone who fits the list, I very rarely feel anything for them.
When I stop thinking about the list, someone comes along who fits me better than I could possibly imagine.
There so many things here for me to exuberantly agree with that I feel it is necessary to extend a high five. *high five*
It's similar to the idea that love is a choice, primarily. I'm big on the idea that you don't really "fall in love". I mean, perhaps the beginning bit when you realize that this is a person you would sacrifice for and it's all amazing--but the kind of love that people stay married for is a series of choices. A lifestyle. And it's hard to explain that to people without sounding like a robot, because you're supposed to use all these incredible metaphors of the wonders of love and the euphoria it creates and the comforting bubble it puts around you from all the bad stuff in the world. But...love is not about that. It's about choosing to open your hands, not grasping after things, and team up with somebody to make a difference in the world. That's love, as I understand it.
Like I said, it sounds rather anti-climactic and so people look at me funny when I try to explain. But really. Love is a reinforced, self-sacrificing, active decision. It sounds like the opposite of mysterious... Should love be mysterious though?
Good thoughts, as I've come to expect from you.
Good thoughts.
~V
I liked this a lot. I was noticing that it is true that you almost never know of a person that is making a list of the kind of spouse they want to be. Our culture does seem to train us up to be self-centered. Perhaps that is the reason for so much sexual immorality. Also, the concept of this kind of "love" would lead to a lot of disappointment which would in turn lead to of other problems.
The disconnect from the Person of Truth and Love is killing us.
I think you're right about not crafting "THE PERFECT ONE" from a list of traits. There is no such thing, and trying to define a person as "likeable" or "not likeable" based on only things like "they are funny, they like horror movies, they will take me to the beach" is silly. However, there are some basic things that should be decided, not about one specific person, but about a relationship before a person ever goes looking for one. For instance, what will you not tolerate? What will be the type of thing that you could never live with? There are some things that should not be compromised upon, and I say it's better to try and define those things before getting into a relationship, rather than getting involved with someone and THEN figuring it out... Then people's feelings are much more hurt.
I have absolutely no idea why but I laughed at the last paragraph. I think this is as close to dead on to what I have been trying to express to so many people in my life. One person in particular. But that is neither here nor there. Good stuff here.
@Ooglick -
i agree with you it helps to know what your own boundaries are before rushing in.
My husband is the opposite of what I thought I wanted in a man (and the kind of men I dated) for years. I wouldn't have it any other way.
I could say a lot of things about this, but I won't. Except this: it's nothing like you could ever imagine. As you said, I love him because I can't help but love him, even when he irks me or hurts me.
But that part of it has to be God.
I've come to realize what I think I want is never what I actually need.
My husband used to tell our daughter (TheMarriedFreshman) that she should not seek for a Christian husband, but a wise man according to what we see in Proverbs. The fact that this man would be a Christ-follower goes without saying, since the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; but there are a lot of qualities there in Proverbs alone which all Christ-followers should strive to achieve. That was the only "list", if you will, he proposed to her.
When she met her husband (she was 16, he was 18), we knew from almost the beginning that this was the man. They spent 3 years courting in our living room for the most part, so that we could all see that we were ALL striving to follow Christ with all our hearts.
When my husband and I met, we were definitely NOT Christ-followers! I was looking for "tall, dark, and handsome" who was preferably Latino or British. Kevin was half British, but definitely an American man. He defied all I believed in politically, socio-economically, and religiously; yet he loved the arts and was a romantic, guitar-playing, Christopher Reeve-looking man who adored me. Took me a while to say "yes", because I wasn't into commitment at the time and wasn't sure he "measured up". He didn't "measure up". That wasn't why I married him, or why our relationship grew into the mysterious, beautiful oneness it became. I realize that more now that he is with the Lord. We were both better together than apart. We completed each other. We realized that early on, and even though we had rough moments (as all couples do - don't be fooled), God grew us up and fused us even closer than we thought we could be. By the time God called him home to Himself, it was almost as if I were Catherine in "Wuthering Heights" - "I AM Heathcliff!" (or "Kevin", in my case).
Good post. I have recommended it. Thanks for sharing!
Having standards isn't such a bad thing. ♥
"to truly love someone is to find the reason you love them a total mystery." that's brilliant. i wish i could recommend this post to everyone i know... PARTICULARLY the incessant list-makers.
I so agree with you about the list thing...I have never made lists about these type things in my life...if something's meant to be it happens...if it doesn't it means it's not meant to be & my life goes on happily regardless...lol love how you ended the blog with..."If you disagree, I will be very mad at you for not chiming in. I'm not entirely sure how I would know you didn't chime in, but if I were you I wouldn't take that chance"
@AmeSoeur -
My experience is almost the exact same. The one person I really liked could not have contrasted more with what my list would have looked like, if I had made one before I met her.
Glad you liked it!
@TheMarriedFreshman -
*highfives back*
Thanks!
And you are right . . . it does sound anti-climactic, doesn't it? In fact, looking at my parents' marriage, it seems anti-climactic. Yet I can tell there is a subtle beauty in it, something I won't be able to understand until I am in that position, and perhaps not even then. I think that might be where the mystery comes in . . . when you have consistently made the choice to love someone, and you are living in that bond that comes as a result.
Paul seems to think love is quite mysterious in Ephesians:
"'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."
@letseewhatthiswilldo -
The point you make about disappointment is another good one; reminds me of a quote that went something like "ideas are better than reality, for nothing is ever as perfect as you imagine it."
Lots of times people are scared that their significant other is comparing them to their ex-significant others, and they don't measure up. But even if someone has never dated, if they have their "perfect someone" all mapped out in their head, then they can compare their significant other to that idea. And that does not seem to be quite fair (how can we compete with a perfect idea?), and as you said is sure to lead to disappointment.
@Ooglick -
This is a good qualification to make. However, it is not one that I would be tempted to make, since I either see things as an obvious deal breaker, in which case I wouldn't ever need to put it on a list, or I see things them as trivial things that I could learn to live with. So yeah I guess I don't believe in any such thing as a "subtle deal breaker" (for me). But I am in full agreement that others might be different and could definitely benefit from making a list about it.
@RealityDreams -
I am very happy to have made you laugh and to have given expression to something you've been thinking about for awhile. But mostly for making you laugh. :-p Thank you for the comment.
@milfncookies -
It's never what we expect, is it? And I think that makes it all the more fun. Who would want things to always happen just the way we planned? I am glad you could be romantically blindsided to such satisfaction.
@perfect_head -
Not chiming in are we???
"But that part of it has to be God."
@LinaCrash -
Succinct and true.
And it reminds me of Coldplay's "Fix You", if you ever happened to hear it or are a Coldplay fan.
@badcats -
Wow. Thank you for sharing, that is such a beautiful marriage story, not least because you say that of course, things do get messy, but God has the ability to make relationships overcome all of that messiness to make something wonderful.
I do love reading the classics, but I have not gotten around to reading either of the Bronte sisters yet. When I read it I will remember the comparison though.
Oh, and hi Victoria's mom! Nice to meet you.
@petitenoirtenue -
That is true, I wouldn't want to suggest that you ought to marry just anybody. Picking random strangers off the street - totally not recommended. I guess I just think it's this particular method which is not the best one to use. (The method of making lists of specific qualities.) It fosters the wrong attitude about the whole process of interacting with people and fancying them and then wanting to be with them forever. We all do have needs, and we shouldn't marry someone who can't meet very many of them, but I don't think that that's what we should go around thinking about all of the time. So I think you are quite right, but that it would still be a bad idea to think that you need to make lists about it to be able to stick to what implicit standards you have in your behavior.
@StarOfLorien -
Thank you muchly. I know a lot of list-makers too, I wonder what they would think about this. I guess we will see if it ever comes up.
I've always found list-making odd also. I have trouble answering when people ask what's my type and such. I basically give answers that don't really mean anything like, "he has to know or be willing to learn how to change a flat tire" [because I know how, I just can't always get the tire off by myself].
I also find, now that I love someone, that I can better answer the question of why him, but not in a very satisfactory manner by any means.